Podcast Transcript
“Welcome to the Wellness Real Estate Podcast, and today you are in for a treat, because oftentimes this subject is something agents want to steer clear of, because it can cause all sorts of problems in closings, and it’s one of the major reasons new home buyers want to sue sellers after closing. So what am I talking about? You guessed it, mold.
Today’s expert guest is Jason Earle, and he’s a man on a mission. An adoring father of two boys in diapers, and curable entrepreneur and indoor air quality crusader, he’s the founder and CEO of GOT MOLD, and the creator of the GOT MOLD Test Kit. The realization that his moldy childhood home was the underlying cause of his extreme allergies and asthma, led him into the healthy home business in 2002, leaving behind a successful career on Wall Street.
Over the last two decades, Jason has personally performed countless sick building investigations, solving many medical mysteries along the way, helping thousands of families recover their health and peace of mind. He’s been featured or appeared in Good Morning America, Extreme Makeover Home Edition, The Dr. Oz Show, Entrepreneur, Wired and more. So today, we are going “to discuss how big producing agents tackle mold issues that lead to successful closings and brand excellence.
So whether you are a realtor or even a homeowner who’s just come across this show, I guarantee you that there will be some new insights you get from this awesome interview I had with Jason Earle. You ready? Okay, let’s grow.
Welcome to the Wellness Real Estate Podcast, where you’ll discover a groundbreaking strategy that is transforming real estate marketing. In every episode, we focus on topics that will help you have more authentic engagements and meaningful conversations about your business. As the wellness real estate impact grows with projections reaching $850 billion by 2027, don’t miss this opportunity to revolutionize your approach, generate more leads and increase sales, becoming the community connector you’re meant to be.”
“I’m Sheila Alston and I’m your host. I’m also the founder of Healthy Home Media, where I help agents all over the country leverage this new trend in the industry to spark new conversations that get people to listen to you and notice your brand. If you’re tired of spinning your wheels without the consistent leads to show for it, then stay tuned.
This podcast is your guide to standing out in a rapidly evolving market guaranteed to change the way you think about real estate marketing.
Hey, welcome to the Wellness Real Estate Podcast today. I’m so excited because I’ve got a great guest on the show today, Jason Earle. He’s the founder of gotmold.com.”
“Today, we’re going to talk about how big producers tackle mold issues that lead to successful closings and brand excellence. So welcome.
So good to be here.
Yeah, I’m excited to hear about your story. I mean, when I read about you, I was just like, wow, this is so interesting. So maybe before we get started talking about the real estate stuff, maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you got into mold and share a little bit about your story with us.
Sure, sure. Well, thanks again for having me. Mold is one of those funny careers that I don’t think anybody really plans to go into.
Right.
But you land here usually from a personal experience. This phrase comes up in my mind a lot, which is, no adversity should be wasted. Many of the people that I know that are doing important work in this space, and in the health space in general, had a personal experience that took them offline to some degree.”
“Then the solution is something that you just can’t keep to yourself. I’m no exception to that. When I was about four years old, I suddenly lost a lot of weight in a three-week period, and my parents were justifiably concerned.
So they took me to the pediatrician who said, you need to take him to the hospital. So we ended up at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, where the initial diagnosis based upon my family history and the symptoms that I was presenting with was cystic fibrosis. So back then, that was a death sentence, and it hit my father particularly hard because he’d lost four of his cousins to CF before the age of 14.
So he saw this up close and personal. And this was their very greatest concern, not having the benefits of genetic testing like we do today. And so the good news is here is that I didn’t have CF, I don’t have CF.
A second opinion six weeks later confirmed that. In fact, what I did have was asthma compounded by pneumonia. And when they tested me for allergies, I was positive for every single thing that they tested me for.”
“It’s one of my formative memories being in this papoose with my back exposed and all these antigens. And my dad said I looked like a ladybug with my back all red and swollen with dots all over it. And so I essentially lived on inhalers until I was about 12.
And then when we moved out of that musty farmhouse, all of my symptoms miraculously disappeared. And it was chalked up to spontaneous adolescent remission, which is a fancy term for we have no idea what the hell happened. And my grandfather had grown out of his asthma too.
So it was just really a non-event. I just moved on with my life. And didn’t think about it again until after a career on Wall Street, at which point I decided to go traveling.
It was after the Doc Humble burst and I was pretty disenchanted. And so I went looking for something meaningful to do with my life. And while I was away, I was reading a story in the local newspapers.”
“I had a lot of time on my hands. And I came across a story about a guy who had been exposed to a significant amount of mold in the hotel where he was an employee. Incidentally, it was the largest mold problem in modern history, with a $55 million total remediation cost.
It was the Hilton Kalia Tower in Oahu on Waikiki Beach. And for anyone who’s ever seen the old postcards of Waikiki Beach, you’ll recognize it in your memory as the one with the big rainbow on it. So anyway, long story short, he had developed adult onset asthma at 40 something years old, as well as all these allergies that he never had before.
So it was like my life in reverse, kind of a deja vu moment, if you will. And so I immediately, the light bulb went on, and I called my dad from a pay phone, which probably isn’t there anymore, and asked him if he thought we had a mold problem, and he just laughed at me. He said, of course, we had mushrooms in the basement.”
“Why do you ask? You know, it’s a typical 70s parent. Mold, mold, wipe it off, you know?
You don’t need a seatbelt, just hop in the back of the pickup truck. You know, that was the way. So, but it was literally in that moment, people talk about like these white light experiences or like these epiphanies they get, or like suddenly life opens up and suddenly there’s clarity.
I had this immediate fascination with not mold per se, although it is fascinating. And the more I learned about it, the more amazing it is. What I really became passionate about or fascinated by is the idea that the buildings that we live and work in can make you sick.
That to me was such a profound big idea because it was hiding in plain sight, probably affecting hundreds of millions, if not billions of people, and largely preventable because if it’s dampness driven, boy, that means that we’re doing something wrong, right? We live on a water planet. We don’t know how to manage moisture by now, boy.”
“What have we been doing this whole time? So that propelled me to come back to New Jersey armed with a lot of curiosity, and again, time on my hands, and I ended up taking a job on the repair and remediation side of things. I went from Wall Street to basically contracting and on the sale side, and it was a lot of fun, but I quickly learned that the contractors were not doing such great work, often using chemicals instead of cleaning, and many times leaving the homes worse than they found them, while charging outrageous sums for the benefit or life thereof.
So I then decided that there was probably more opportunity for me to both learn and also serve through the inspection side of the business. And so I was taking a lot of college courses on building science and things like that, non-credit stuff just to get up to speed doing a lot of reading. And that’s when I discovered the most amazing tool, which was mold sniffing dogs.
And it turns out that that’s where I got my best education. Oreo, my famed mold dog, who propelled us into, you know, gosh, I “don’t even know how many TV shows, magazines, newspapers, books on working dogs, college biology textbooks. I mean, I’ve got boxes and boxes of them.
But she taught me where mold hides. And she was also a great calling card. So in terms of the diagnostic side, she literally could go into a building and within five minutes she would have the whole thing scoped out.
She’d tell me exactly where to look, where to dig in deeper, where to take samples. And so I quickly learned, largely driven by the press we had, I was busy for so long, that buildings fail in a kind of predictive manner. And the defects, at least in our regional basis, are pretty similar as the building’s age.
And so she essentially taught me how to inspect for mold. And so that company became 1-800-GOT-MOLD. And I did that in the field for 18 years with her 12 years, actually she did thousands of inspections with me.”
“And then in recent years, I became frustrated by the fact that people couldn’t afford our services often. And we were limited to our geography, which led us to create the GOT MOLD Test Kit, which is what occupies my time and focus today.
Wow, that’s so exciting. And just to know that you were so inspired to heal others, because you were healed by getting out of that environment. And it could be just as easy as just not being in that area where there’s mold, that your body then starts to have the ability to heal itself.
I love that. Yeah, and actually, the sort of beautiful bookend on this is that I became fascinated by the idea that buildings can make you sick. That was the gateway drug for me.
And the incredible myriad of disease states that are caused or aggravated by poor endoar quality is just now starting to be understood. I intuitively understood that this is a big deal 20 years ago, and it was very much a push market. I had to really educate people about this.”
“Now, it’s a pull market, right? People had to get the handouts, strips the supply when it comes to Jason Earle and what we do. But what fascinates me now is not the buildings make people sick, the buildings make people sick, because it’s kind of, I think, now in the zeitgeist.
What’s more fascinating to me is that healthy buildings can actually help you heal and can facilitate wellness on a broad basis. And so it’s not just the disease states it actually creates on the obverse, but actually when buildings are healthy, it liberates the body and the mind and the family. And there’s just so much happens there that can’t necessarily be quantified.
And so that’s why I’m really excited to chat with you today.
Yeah, you know, because I think we’re totally aligned on this. Last time we talked, I was telling you about how I talked with an agent about how when she was thinking about wellness real estate, she was thinking about mind, the body connection, and how she could just be more mindful in the way she attracts clients and things. And I was like, well, that’s wonderful.”
“But I think of the body or as the home as the body. And it was something that you had said too. And I was like, wow, we’re totally aligned in this because I really do feel like if you treat the home like an extension of yourself and you build a healthy home, a lot of people don’t have that connection.
They don’t realize that your home can be healthy. But if you just strive to make it healthier than it is, you are going to benefit. And so maybe you can explain what you think of, how you think about that.
Yeah. So I had this fun kind of thought experiment that I like to walk people through, which is first, most people think about buildings as these static boxes that we live and work in, where we basically live and store our stuff. And more and more, I think about buildings as an extension of your immune system, like an exoskin or exoskeleton.”
“And the building biologists who have their growing force for good, I think, in this space, call it a third skin. And so I like that idea. But the extension of the immune system is a good way to kind of begin the conversation.
But more and more, I think about the building as kind of a body. And if you look at it, it’s got all the physical characteristics of an organism, which is basically, if you define it, an organism is a system of life-sustaining systems. And so if the building is in the system of life-sustaining systems, I don’t know what it is.
But the anatomy of it is really pretty fascinating. Buildings have bones, right? They’ve got the structural elements.”
“They’ve got fat in the form of insulation. The dermis or skin, if you do a cross-section of a building and you look at a wall assembly, boy, that looks a lot like skin with the layers, the underlayers and then the external and siding, what have you. You got plumbing for the circulatory system and the electrical system is the nervous system and boy, it just plays all the way through.
And then there’s this question mark around the immune system and it struck me very squarely not too long ago that that’s us. We are the immune system. In fact, we are more like the mitochondria more specifically in the sense that we are the sort of power cell that organizes all these things and kind of connects all the dots and makes sure that things run well.
And you know this is true because a building that’s unoccupied degrades very quickly. So the building needs us. The moment a building is built, it begins to deteriorate.
Kind of like the moment you’re born, you’re beginning to die. I mean, I guess it’s really kind of true. We’re all on our way to the same place.”
“And so unless it’s lovingly cared for and maintained, it will accelerate. And so buildings have a birthday and potentially a death day. And that longevity is largely determined by how well you care for it.
And so a failure to maintain the building will, of course, accelerate the demise. But when a building gets sick, and this is where you look at this thing as really a symbiotic relationship. When a building gets sick, it does so primarily when it begins to fail to shed wind and water and also to manage moisture indoors, or like to detox.
It fails to be able to release the things that needs to release. And so when that happens, the building gets sick. And usually the first manifestation of that is a moisture problem, because when it fails to shed winter water or fails to manage the moisture indoors, mold will begin to grow.
And I think about mold as inflammation in the building, right? It’s the first sign of pain. So you can think about that musty smell as a pain signal.”
“It’s your building telling you, hey, look over here. There’s an imbalance. We need to do something about this.
And if you ignore that pain signal, well, that pain signal, just like if you ignore pain in your body, chronic pain, chronic inflammation is its own disease. And so chronic inflammation in the building, chronic mold and moisture issues actually manifest as rot, which ultimately is a structural problem. And ultimately, I would assert that that’s cancer for the building.
And so if you keep going down that road, of course, a moisture problem can destroy a building. So it’s incumbent upon us, it’s imperative, in fact, that we begin to look at these buildings in a more, you know, sort of anthropomorphize, right? People love to name their cars in both, but we don’t do that with our homes, which is kind of a funny thing.
Yet we’re so dependent on the buildings. And so by looking at the building with a more sort of like love as maintenance or maintenance as love, and then recognizing that when the building heals, so too do the people, or at least allows for that to occur.”
“Well, so people don’t need to freak out about mold if they do have mold. There are some ways to mediate it, especially if they catch it early on. And so I’m assuming that that’s what your self GOT MOLD test kits enable people to do.
Sure. Yeah. Our test kit is part of a puzzle.
It is kind of our way of allowing concerned consumers to cost-effectively take the first step without having to schedule appointments and deal with conflicts of interests and all the potholes and pitfalls that are rampant in the mold space. I mean, it’s tough out there. You’re finding a qualified person that actually has your best interests at heart.
It’s hard. It’s rare. So with that knowledge, we created the GOT MOLD Test Kit.”
“Unless you take air samples using professional devices, and we partnered with the number one lab in the world, Eurofins, who does our analysis. So we’ve created really the highest quality low-cost test kit, but that’s only the testing part. So what we encourage people to do is actually become more intimately familiar with your building, or with buildings in general.
And so the idea is that testing really should be after you’ve done an inspection. So if a professional comes over, they do an inspection first. They don’t just grab samples.
A Lisa qualified, a reputable one does. And so what we like to do is actually encourage people to do the same thing with your own home. If your body would say, give yourself a physical, look in the mirrors, do you see anything?
It’s like a mole check, you know how people take a look for anomalies on their body. Same kind of thing, do a walkthrough. So we create an ebook that gives people that step-by-step guide to do their own inspection so that every day we all come in and out of our house, we don’t see so many things.”
“We’re so busy with our bills and our kids and whatever. This is a moment to stop, pause and take a look at what you’ve invested in. Looking at the windows and the gutters and we’ve got all these checklists and stuff.
Then after you’ve done that, you’ll have a better idea, first of all, where the building might actually be failing. Because mold doesn’t just happen, it’s a moisture problem. Moisture problems don’t just happen.
There’s something that occurred. There’s a decay, something has degraded or something failed, or there’s always an event or a series of events that lead up to that. So this gives you the opportunity to understand what that’s about.
And then collecting the samples from a more informed perspective, instead of just kind of randomly doing it wherever you happen to have your last sneeze. And so the product that we offer here is really a combination of tools, knowledge, and awareness. But that being said, it also works really well by itself.”
“So if you’ve got concerns, you’ve got a musty smell, history of water damage, symptoms that seem to get better when you leave the building, or a visible mold in an area and you’re concerned it might be elsewhere. If you hire a professional, they would do the same kind of samples that we allow you to do, but without the concerns around scheduling appointments, and conflicts of interest, and costs, and things like that.
Well, so I imagine as an inspector, you worked with a lot of realtors. So maybe you can talk a little bit about how you saw successful realtors dealing with mold, and unsuccessful realtors dealing with mold.
Yeah, no, it was great. In the beginning, because we had Oreo, all I had to do is do these little demonstrations. Everybody wanted to see a mold dog at work.”
“So we had this really cool training wheel that spun around on a lazy Susan, with dummy samples, and five out of the six holes, and then the sixth one was a hot sample, had mold in it. So Oreo would find it in two seconds, and she’d get a treat, and everyone would wave, and everyone’d clap, rather, and she loved it. Oreo actually got a bigger kick out of it than anybody, because I just brought her around and did this all.
This is all we did. That was all of our marketing. And so we got invited a lot to real estate offices, because they always had their lunch and learns, and these kinds of educational things.
So we became very well known in the real estate community. And I saw a very consistent pattern, very consistent pattern, which was small producers were scared of us. Big producers loved us.
Yeah. And that was shocking to me until I did, I remember driving down the road and going, oh, I totally get it. It’s hard to find a prospect.”
“And sometimes it’s hard to get that prospect to actually like a property enough, and so there’s a lot of work involved in that. And boy, you don’t want to miss that, you don’t want to lose that commission. So what I found was that the small minded agents were the ones that would say, oh, it’s just a little musty smell, or just a little dehumidifier will fix it, or just a little paint, little kills, a little dry lock, whatever kind of quick fix patch, and not a big deal.
Whereas the big producers would say, oh, it’s just a little bit of a mix. We’re out of here. And they would just literally pull their client.
This is not for you, unless you want to make the investment, unless you want to go the distance on this thing. If there’s something really great, it’s right next to your kid’s school, and you want to fight that fight, understand that this is going to take a long time, it’s going to be expensive. They would sell against the property, because they didn’t want the person to have a bad experience.”
“They were concerned about their health and welfare, their budget, their timelines. They were really, truly servant. They had this consultative servant type approach.
And as a result, that authenticity seemed to really resonate. And so these are people that were doing 20, 30 million dollars, and really top producers in the Princeton market. And they were never scared of mold.
They were scared of missing the mold. You know what I mean? The small ones wanted to hide it, diminish it, just ignore it if they could.
And that is a huge difference. And it showed up in their paychecks. It also showed up in the word of mouth.
These big producers, they didn’t have to advertise. I mean, the ones that I’m talking about, people would talk about them and say, man, she really had my or he really had my best interests at heart. So word to the wise here, if you want to be a big producer, you have to defend your client’s most valuable, their needs.”
“If you think about the commission, then you’re missing the point. The money is a byproduct of doing great work.
Yeah, I totally agree. Because if you put the client first and they know, and you’re confident in your ability to find them the right home, not just the first home, then that’s going to shine through. You’re going to not seem desperate.
Your energy is going to be so much better and they’re going to know that you’re looking out for them. And like you said, tell everybody about you.
Absolutely.
You can start as a low producing agent. You can turn into a high producing agent just by putting that foot forward and doing it that way instead.
I’ve seen it over and over again. And it really is. Also, people know when they bought a house that they got kind of slammed into.”
“You know, they know because the home inspector, by the way, and I hate to say this for all the realtors listening, but I always tell people, don’t use the inspector that your realtor recommends. Don’t, because guess who that inspector works for?
The realtor.
Yeah, not for the customer. They work for the person who gives them repeat business. And very rarely, you might get lucky and have a repeat business.
Well, and the intention is, from the realtor, to have a smooth closing. So even if nothing is said, the inspector knows that. That everybody wants a smooth closing.
The homeowner wants a smooth closing. They don’t want all these bumps in the road, but you know that if there is a bump in the road, hiding it is not going to be good for you in the long run.
No, it will bite you. And people intuitively know this stuff. It’s not hard for them to figure out that when they have to deal with a mold issue three months into it, or six months into it, that somebody dropped the ball.”
“Yeah.
Especially if it was diminished. Especially if they’re like, ah, it’s just a little musty smell. Just throw up the humidifier down there, right?
And then their kids are sick, you know?
And what about the seller’s agent who took that listing and smelled this mold down in the basement? What do you say to them?
I think it’s the same kind of thing. And this also comes down to, you know, in this day and age, back when I started doing this, it was so poorly understood. And it was, you know, I had to really educate people around this stuff.
And so I kind of gave people more of a pass back then. Because, and listen, back when I was a kid, that smell was the basement smell.
Yeah.”
“It was grandma’s basement smell.
Yeah.
It was dismissed as an aesthetic nuisance. And we now know that it’s the first sign of mold growth. Before you see anything visible, you will smell it, usually, depending upon ventilation.
But it’s also a health hazard. It is neurotoxic. The animal study is done by Dr. John Bennett, Rutgers University, show that it is, in fact, some of the compounds in the musty smell are 40 times more toxic than toluene, which is highly carcinogenic.
And in fact, Brown University found a strong correlation between mold and dampness and dorsal depression back in 2018. And so the data from the animal studies link that musty smell to a lack of dopamine production, believe it or not, in animal studies. So it is a big deal.
In fact, those same fruit flies that were sickened by the musty smell also develop Parkinsonian-like symptoms, mitochondrial disorders, all sorts of stuff. So this is a big deal. It’s not just an aesthetic nuisance.”
“So the seller’s agent who smells that and doesn’t take action on it, I think is doing themselves and their seller a disservice because you have an opportunity when you smell or see something like that to fix that on your clock and on your nickel without a gun to your head and patiently because everything it costs more when you have to do it fast. So get that stuff done beforehand. Get your testing done before you list.
I strongly encourage that. I tried marketing that for a long time, but it’s so un-American to be proactive.
They think about the short-term instead of the long-term, don’t they?
Yeah. I mean, human nature in the US is just like we’re like a bunch of toddlers. We just all worry about our candy right now.
Exactly. There’s just no thought about dinner. The reality is that this is a subject where the adage, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
“I think that was written for this in every way, in terms of preventing it from happening in the first place, but then also preventing problems in real estate transactions by ignoring or dismissing these things. This is something you want to run towards. And I might also say this, any mold problem that you have or that one of your clients has that is not dealt with will only do one thing, get bigger.
Because mold does one thing better than anything else. It grows and it grows geometrically, logarithmically. So one sport becomes 10,000, 10,000 becomes 10 million, 10,000,000 becomes a billion.
And so you get this humongous growth and it happens very quickly, 24 to 48 hours is all it takes for mold to initially colonize. And so if you wait and you ignore it, what you’re really doing is making sure that your client ends up having to pay. And so it’s a disservice to everybody involved.
So at what point do you, did you ever smell a home and go, okay, this home’s like too far gone. It’ll have to be like totaled here, like demolished or can you fix any situation?”
“Well, so first of all, I’ve only actually told two homeowners that it was not livable and not salvageable. And these are extreme circumstances. If I showed you the pictures, you’d say, people live there?
Really? Like, you know, it was shocking that there were inhabitants, honestly, and that they were surviving. I mean, it was like squatter type of situation, hoarding and, you know, that kind of stuff.
There were a lot of other variables there that weren’t healthy. But I also have a personal experience having shopped for a house during the pandemic, where, you know, inspections were really not even possible because nobody was negotiating. And so the timelines were so short and houses were being sold, you know, instantly, kind of.
So we looked at 40 houses while my wife was pregnant with our second kid. And she was, I mean, she was like very pregnant.
Yeah.”
“And so it was it was urgent that we get this thing locked down. And so and, you know, she’s very Midwestern and I’m very New York. So I’d walk up to we’d walk up to a house, the front door would open and I go, Nope, next.
And she’d go, No, you can’t do that. You can’t just do that. You know, she tried to try to calm me down.
I said, No, honey, it’s not it’s not anyone’s best interest to waste time on these things.
So I smell that baby into the environment.
And I know how long it takes to do these things and how hard it is to find the right contractors. And I know how long it takes to get the restoration done. And a perfect remediation takes a month if everything goes perfectly.
That’s not including restoration. So I wasn’t about to move into a house and then move into a project like that. So I just was very, very cautious about about, you know, there’s got to be, there’s got to be a house that’s not musty here in Minnesota.”
“Well, we looked at 40. And by the way, like 38 of them had a strong odor. Up here, it’s terrible because of the way they build things and air exchange and six months of winter and all that stuff.
So, um, but, you know, I would never diagnose a building just by smell, um, except if I were buying the building.
Yeah.
So in other words, you know, like I, there, it just depends on people’s appetite, right? So like I think about a mold problem, you might as well call it a fixer-upper, right? There’s a problem with that house.”
“It’s not just a radon system that you’re just going to go drop a couple of pipes into the ground with a fan and then grab a couple samples and make sure it’s below four pico-curios and you’re good, right? Like a mold problem has, it can be Pandora’s box. So once you start opening the walls and next scene, you know, a lot of times it may not be straightforward as to what the source of the moisture is.
And so once you start getting in to opening up the walls, you start to realize, wow, this could really be a lot more expensive. And there’s no way to really get your mind around the extent of a mold problem in the middle of a real estate transaction. That’s one of the reasons why it’s so important that it’s dealt with offline.
It’s dealt with outside of those constraints because it is truly one of those things where you just don’t know what will happen. And sometimes it’s straightforward, most of the time it’s not. And so the costs can’t really be contained.”
“And then, you know, we’re trying to move or get house prepared. It’s just it’s already hard enough to buy a house, move and do all that stuff without having to have, you know, major surgery, you know, on a building. And then the recovery time, which is which is what restoration really is.
I wonder if homeowners insurance covers that. Do they?
Great question. Great question. That’s a hard no.
And the reason for that is because there was a huge amount of lawsuits. I mean, a huge number of lawsuits that happened in the late 90s, early 2000s, because a woman named Melinda Ballard, who actually she and I became friends, she sued farmers insurance because of a major mold problem that they botched in her house and her son and her husband got severely debilitated. She sued and she got a $34 million reward, which was later returned.”
“But that $34 million reward caused so much fraud. So many people said, well, I’m just going to sue my insurance company. I’m going to get my house wet.
It was basically a lottery ticket. So the insurance industry wised up to that very quickly. And they said, no, we’re not going to do that anymore.
And so they all got together and created a database where they pool data on claims. And it’s called the Comprehensive Loss Underwriters Exchange, CLUE, C-L-U-E, and they issue a clue report, which by the way, this is a really powerful tip. Anyone who wants to buy a house, get yourself a clue report on the house that you’re buying.
It will give you the homeowner’s insurance history. You’ll find out if there were fires, dog bites, any kind of claim that was made, even claims that weren’t paid, claims that were attempted will show up. And so the insurance industry did this.”
“It’s kind of like the assigned risk program for driving, right? Like, you don’t just jump from one carrier to the other if you have too many points. They all know.
It’s the same kind of thing. It’s a shared debt. And so what happens is the insurance industry said, we’re not going to pay for microbial damage, except for, we’ll cap it, or five or $10,000, kind of as a courtesy, but we’ll pay for water damage on an unlimited basis.
And so it’s a semantic conversation where, you know, water damage, as long as it’s dealt with within 72 hours, is considered water damage. At the 72 hour mark, according to the industry standard and the insurance industry, 72 hours is when mold is a guarantee. And so you then have to treat it like mold, which means men in moon suits, different protocols, different procedures.”
“And that’s where the insurance goes, nope, not mine. You didn’t deal with it quickly enough. You didn’t mitigate damages, which is a common term in insurance.
You didn’t react to this quickly enough, so that’s on your balance sheet. So very important that you don’t rely on insurance. Insurance is there to cover sudden and accidental losses, not moving of groundwater through foundation, acts of God, uncontrolled dampness, and water damage that wasn’t dealt with promptly.
Those things are excluded. So if you have a musty smell downstairs and you don’t visibly see water damage, but then all of a sudden there is water damage that you notice on a heavy rain and it’s seeping in through the walls, and then you call and say, this is the first sign of water damage. Are they going to?
I wonder what they’re going to say about that.
Well, they will often… Well, what happens is the insurance industry has got a pretty good… They’ve done a pretty good job of educating their adjusters, I’d say more so than the health care industry.”
“I wish the doctors knew as much as the adjusters do. And so they’ll come over and go, okay, that’s pre-existing.
Oh, jeez.
So it’s just… It is so hard to hide that stuff. And oftentimes…
And even the attempt to file a claim shows up as a claim. So the real catch on this and the real kick in the pants is that if you file the same kind of claim within a five-year period, the insurance… Your underwriter will generally either drop you, jack up your rates or deny your renewal.
And so you have to be very careful about inviting the vampire into your home. Unless… If it is something that you truly cannot pay…
I always tell people, if you can pay for the water damage cash, do it. If you can… And mold is going to be cash anyway, so don’t bother asking because they’re going to count it against you and they’re not going to pay you.”
“So now you’re double screwed. So you have to pay cash, unfortunately. It’s just there’s no two ways to about it.
Yeah, it’s one of the reasons why mold-related illness is such a big deal because it disproportionately affects people in low-income housing and things like that, where they either are renting and don’t have any control or B, they actually don’t have the money to do the repairs and remediation anyway. And so they end up living in this. And then of course they can’t think, they can’t work, they can’t do anything.
So it perpetuates poverty. And so it’s a really serious problem here. The fact that mold is mold and air quality or cost prohibitive is a major dysfunction in this whole.
So is it just an assumption that a newer home is going to be way better than an older home in all cases?
Oh boy. Oh gosh, I wish it were that easy. So what we have here is 130 million households in the United States.
And about two thirds of them are owned. About a third are owner-occupied. But 75% of them are sheetrock.”
“And so if you were to look at the 25% that are plaster, you might say that those buildings actually have a better chance of not being moldy because plaster doesn’t support fungal growth. The paint does. Yeah, the paint can support a little bit.
But sheetrock is like, if you’re mold, sheetrock is like a buffet. It’s exactly what it wants to eat. And it holds moisture really well.
The gypsum inside the white center part of it is very absorptive. And it gets wet and stays wet longer than the mold takes to grow. So it’s perfect.
It’s like, if we intentionally, if we decided, you know what, we’re going to build the most mold-friendly buildings possible. We’re going to build buildings that get moldy really quickly, just as an experiment. We would have exactly what we have.
Really?”
“Absolutely. There is no better recipe for building moldy buildings than the way we build our buildings today. Sheetrock, light frame construction, fiberglass insulation, fluffy stuff in the walls that again absorbs water, doesn’t let it dry.
We wrap the buildings in plastic, Tyvek. It’s not plastic per se, but in some climates we do low permeability vapor retarders. The point is that we really build buildings that are chemical boxes that get moldy very quickly when they get wet.
Contrast this against the buildings that we built before World War II, which were stone, brick, plaster, old growth, timber, concrete, all that stuff. And back even when we had slate roofs and things like that, or even back when we had cedar shake, you could see if you went up into a cedar roof assembly, you could see daylight through the shingles. And if we’re pouring down rain, not a drop of water would get in.
But if water did come in because it was blown in, it would dry very quickly. Now, we build these buildings out of mold-friendly materials, and we also tighten them up really tight for energy efficiency. And then we slather the walls with carcinogenic petrochemicals, i.e.
paints and polyurethane finishes and stuff like that. And then we go, gosh, why is there such a huge spike in asthma, allergies, autoimmune disease, cancers, and autism? What is going on?
It must be in the water. It’s in 130 million residences, 75% of which are built like this. And so it is a major epidemic that has been, I often say it’s like the proverbial boiling frog.
It started slowly at first in 1940, the advent of sheetrock and mass production. And then in 1970s, when they closed the building super tight for energy efficiency. And then even more so now that because we went from spending 90% of our time indoors to 99% and always in the same building now, COVID, we’re now stuck in the same building breathing the same air.”
“So it is truly a, it has reached a boiling point. And it’s showing up in our healthcare, it’s showing up in our kids with ADHD, by the way, it’s showing up in, like I said, 100 different autoimmune diseases. It is manifesting in every single possible way you can imagine.
Well, so then I’m hoping that there are solutions then to help these people that are living in homes like this, like just getting ERV or HRV system to bring in ventilation could be a first step, possibly, changing your air filter, opening your windows.
All of the above, right? So the first thing you want to do is attune your senses, right? So you want to really become, like I said, intimately familiar with your building and how the building operates.
And this is not something you want to just kind of dismiss and just, you know, my husband takes care of that stuff or, you know, I just call the handyman. You really want to, if you can, get more familiar with this, you know, just like you should be getting more familiar with your body. You only got one of them.”
“And so you want to, if you see something, smell something, or feel something, do something. So mostly it comes down to acting quickly. If you see evidence of moisture, if you smell a musty smell, if you have symptoms that suddenly pop up and they seem to get better when you leave the building, you take action on that.
Whether it means hiring a professional or buying a test kit, those are the immediately taking action on that, finding the moisture problem, solving that. Now, on an ongoing basis, you want to monitor your humidity. So this means getting gauges, digital humidity gauges, which I have all over my house.
And what’s cool now is a lot of them will report back to your phone. So you can set alerts and things and you want to keep the humidity in the Goldilocks range, which is between 40 and 60 percent, ideally 40, 45 percent. And so monitoring that humidity is really important because it changes constantly.”
“And you want to do things like minimize moisture through using ventilation. And just the ventilation that you’re building already probably has, which is like bathroom exhaust vents, and use those things because the moisture goes somewhere. And if you don’t tell it where to go, it’s going to find a place to go that you don’t know and you don’t want.
And so you want to be in charge of this and be proactive. And then in the process of doing that, also recognize that every basement needs a dehumidifier, every basement. And so you want to make sure that’s set up so that it automatically drains, so you don’t have to go down there.
If you think you’re really going to go down there and empty that bucket every day, then you must have a lot more time on your hands than everyone I talk to. So set it up so that it automatically drains. And ERVs, powerful, especially in buildings that are newer, because ERVs, for those who are familiar, are energy recovery ventilators, and their brethren or their cousin is heat recovery ventilators.”
“And they are, depending upon where you live in the country, ERVs or HRVs are relevant. But there’s some detail in there. And not every, they’re not all created equal.
And most HRVAC contractors are just starting to really understand how important they are. And so what they do is they expel stale air and they bring in fresh air, but they use a transfer plate or a heat exchanger that basically transfers the heat energy from the home into the new air coming in, so that you’re not just spewing your utility bill into the great outdoors. And then also your air conditioning will actually transfer over that latent energy into the incoming air.
And so the idea there is that you want to have fresh air. And since we don’t open our windows anymore, as a society, we turn off the AC and turn on the heat. We turn off the heat, turn on the AC, you know?”
“This allows for your home to expel a lot of the man-made VOCs. It doesn’t do as good of a job of managing moisture, ERVs and HIVs. But what it does do is it gets rid of a lot of the really nasty chemicals that are abundant in our buildings, our personal care products, our cleaning products, our furniture.
You know, like, it’s just unbelievable. So we, the fact that we still actually have buildings and furnishings and all these things that are made with carcinogenic materials, the fact that that’s even legal is to me, like, so appalling. And, you know, there’s so many regulations about so many things that are absolutely meaningless and they can’t, like, just ban that stuff.
Bermaldehyde is a group one carcinogen. And it’s in all the pink and yellow insulation that’s in these walls. Right.
Like, it’s insanity. So getting air exchange is great. Now, here’s the real, here’s the best thing.
People always ask me what the number one thing would be. If there’s one thing, open your windows.”
“Yeah.
You know, if the weather allows, if it’s not too hot, too humid or too cold, open your windows whenever you can, because it’s not just getting the humidity, getting the fresh air in. You’re also introducing microbes. You’re bringing in spores.
And this may sound very, very counterintuitive, but mold spores are a natural and very important part of a healthy immune system, a healthy microbiome. And so they are hormetic stressors. So if you go outside and you take a deep breath, you’re breathing in hundreds, possibly thousands of spores without any ill effect in most cases, unless you’ve got really serious sensitivities.
And so when mold grows indoors, those numbers often go through the roof. And so then it becomes too much. It’s like the old, the dose makes the poison, but you want to open the windows and bring that stuff in.”
“And so that your building has a diverse microbiome. And the data on this is very strong. The homes of the high microbial diversity, meaning lots of critters but none growing in your house, have lower cases of asthma, allergies and autoimmune disease.
And the opposite is also true. Buildings that are over sanitized, where there are too many HEPA vacuums, too many HEPA filters, too many sanitized, just too clean. Those buildings have much, much higher incidence of asthma, allergies, autoimmune disease, cancers, autism and things like that.
And anybody who wants to read more about that, Get Never Home Alone by Rob Dunn. Fabulous book, very entertaining, very eye-opening. And so yeah, it’s a big deal.
So we really want to bring more nature back in. We just want to control moisture so it doesn’t grow in our home. That’s the distinction.”
“Right. So if you are a real estate agent and you’re wanting to arm yourself with a really good mold inspector or just home inspector, how can they make sure that they’re finding someone that could be a good partner for them to recommend?
Well, that’s a great question because home inspectors are generally totally unqualified for this. So in fact, they’re not even allowed to. Most of the organizations that train and certify home inspectors have very clear guidelines around not allowing their inspectors to deal with mold because there’s so many potholes and pitfalls.
So what you’re going to want to look for for a professional inspector is A, ideally, somebody who is not in the remediation business, okay? The last thing you want to do is bring someone in who gets paid by the pound, who essentially gets paid by the size of the job. So an independent inspector, their business model is they get paid for their time and expertise.”
“And so a truly independent, qualified inspector, somebody who might be a building biologist, this is a really great distinction, somebody who might be accredited through ACAC, you can learn more at acac.org, where they have certified indoor environmentalists. And these are council certified credentials. They tend to be much better to work with than somebody who might be just a certified mold inspector, which is kind of a hollow term, I mean, it’s a three-day course.
And, you know, open book answer, open book test, that kind of thing. So you want to look for somebody who’s independent, someone who’s got, you know, qualifications that exceed a standard mold assessment, because you want to think more holistically around this. And then you want to make sure that they’re going to deliver a full written report, not just lab results.”
“Because a lot of times, they’ll just grab samples and send lab results. What you really need is someone who’s going to give you a step by step, broken down, they break down observations and recommendations, exactly what needs to be done. And if there’s actually remediation needs to be done, they will also provide you with a scope of work, which is what in some states where there’s regulations that are required by those inspectors to provide to the contractors.
Contractors are not allowed to write their own scope of work, in like the state of New York, for example. And so you want to have somebody who is, oh, by the way, of course, it goes by saying that if you’re in a state where there’s licensing or requirements, you have to use someone who’s licensed, otherwise you’re just playing Russian roulette, and it won’t hold up in court anyway. And so the full written report will also have, in that scope of work, will also have clearance criteria, in other words, when’s the remediation going to be completed, like objective terms, exactly how we know when the funds are going to be released.”
“And a written interpretation of the lab results. So you need a real professional. I mean, our reports through 1-800-GOT-MOLD were 19 pages, no fluff.
Yeah. I mean, no fluff whatsoever. So it’s hard to find those people, candidly.
But it’s important to have those people in your Rolodex, because they’re worth their weight in gold. They will, whatever small amount of money, they could be a couple thousand bucks, a few thousand bucks, the amount of problems they will help prevent definitely pays the freight.
Well, and then what about the type of testing that is done, the air samples versus like testing a swab sample, which is better?
Oh, good question. So first of all, so a lot of tests are prone to false positives, in the sense that, you know, I just mentioned that mold spores are so abundant in our world. I’ll put a little point on that.”
“Every year, kingdom fungi, which includes mushrooms, as well as micro fungi like yeast and molds, produce 50 megatons of spores every year. 50 megatons is the equivalent to 500,000 blue whales. Just keep remembering that, okay?
It’s 25 times as much tea as what’s drank every year by the entire planet, okay? It is massive, the number of spores, okay? But most of them fall in the ocean and mountain tops and the Great Plains, and they essentially compost, and they’re just lying in wait for the right conditions to grow.
So anyway, we are all washed in spores. In fact, they find them 13.7 miles above the Earth’s surface in weather balloons, and they help form precipitation, which ultimately leads to ice crystals and snow formation and all this stuff. I mean, spores are an important part of our weather system.”
“That’s how powerful that fungal force is on our planet. So I say that all for a reason, which is to say that if you swab any surface, you’re going to find mold spores. So if you take a swab and then you culture it, which is so 1999 because we now have DNA analysis, so you don’t need to culture anything these days.
But if you do what they do, which is a typical inspector move, is you swab the surface and then you send it in, you’re always going to have a positive reading. The question is to what degree? So I prefer to do a very robust visual inspection, followed by very specific kinds of sampling.
So oftentimes, if there’s a problem, I would request permission to drill into walls, which is not usually granted, by the way. But since we couldn’t do that, I would make note of any moisture conditions that are present, moisture meters and things like that, where at least we could say, follow up on this, follow up on this. I’d flag these things for further investigation.”
“But then in terms of testing, grabbing air samples is super important because airborne mold spores are a dead giveaway that you got a mold problem. Not the only indicator. Sometimes you mold in a wall and they won’t show up as abnormal.
But in those cases, you’ll have the musty smell. So it’s again important to note that. So spore counts and musty smell are two sides of the same coin, don’t always coexist at the same time.
So it’s important to recognize that they’re both indicators of the same problem, essentially. It’s just a location of where it’s growing. And then in terms of sampling for the surfaces, one of the things that’s very common is ERME, which is a dust test.
This is always high. So I would highly recommend that no one use that test because it’s absolutely problematic. And but yet it’s very common that doctors recommend that sensitive patients use this test to determine whether building is safe.”
“Almost no building passes. Even brand new construction that’s never had water damage will still end up with a high ERME score that’s out of control. So swabs are no go.
They’re junk science. Petri dishes are no go. They’re always high.
Junk science, not used by professionals. ERME, junk science, less junky, but the interpretation of it is junk. So what do you do to surface samples?
So if you have visible mold on a surface, what do you do? Well, there’s a fancy technique called a tape lift. And it literally is exactly what you think it is.”
“It’s a piece of tape. Now, it comes in different formats, but basically you grab a sample of the actual mold. And at the lab, they can say if that’s actually mold growth, or if it’s just spores, or if it’s something else.
Sometimes it’s dirt, sometimes it’s some other stain. So I usually use spore traps for the air samples, which look like this, these little cylinders. That’s what our test kit uses, by the way.
Or tape and tape lifts for surfaces. There’s not a lot else that’s actually valid in terms of testing. All the other stuff will be prone to false positives.
And so leading to complications in the real estate transaction.
So if there’s so many spores in the air, how is your air sensor sensing the mold that’s in question?
Great question. You asked some good ones. So our process is not our process.”
“I learned a long time ago not to try to be too smart. Instead, what I do is I borrow from people that are a lot smarter than me. So the methodology that drives the use of this tool, which is the sports app that I hold in my hand for those of us not watching, uses something called volumetric air sampling, which means that we collect a volume of air and it’s a fixed volume for each sample.
So whether it’s in the bedroom or the bathroom or whatever, it’s always the same volume of air, 75 liters. But we also collect an outside air sample right before we begin the indoor samples. Why do we do that?
Well, mold spores are so abundant outside and also variable. So it depends on the time of day, how much moisture is outside, did it just rain, what season it is, is there snow on the ground? There’s so many variables.”
“And so what we find outside is what we hope to find essentially inside. In other words, a healthy indoor environment looks a lot like the outdoor air, okay? So what we do is we collect the outdoor air sample and then we collect the indoor air samples.
And our software compares the two. And then what we look for is essentially we delete what we find outside from what we find inside and whatever is left over, if there’s a lot of different stuff and higher quantities, that’s a red flag. And depending upon how much greater and how many more species are found indoors, that’s the gradient that goes from yellow to orange to red, if you will.
So that outdoor air sample is key. And so if anybody’s doing sampling, which is why Ermi, by the way, doesn’t work because it doesn’t have an outdoor sample. It’s one of the reasons.”
“If you have to always have that outdoor air sample because that varies so much, the types of molds and the quantities that are commonly found in buildings change dramatically as you go from, let’s say Florida to Arkansas to Minnesota to Vancouver. The whole is a gradient there of different flora and things like that. And so this gives you the ability to know what’s happening right now at the time of sampling.
That’s wonderful. So then say someone gets a positive reading, how do they know how to hire the right remediation people that are going to fix it? Because like you said, there’s some people that are not that knowledgeable doing remediation.
And then there’s some that understand what needs to be done.”
“You hit the nail on the head. And if I wish I could wave a magic wand, it wouldn’t be my first wish, but it would be probably my top 10 to generate a list of reputable contractors. Because it’s something that’s been elusive to me for the last 23 years.
I have hired and fired 50 different contractors while overseeing projects over the last 23 years. So it is extremely difficult. And it’s not only that they’re difficult to find, they don’t maintain their excellence forever, because oftentimes it’s the foreman who’s excellent, not the contractor themselves, and then they lose the foreman, or he goes and starts his own company, or she.
And so what you want to look for is anybody who, you want to look for contractors that follow very strictly, and then advertise that they do, the IICRC S520 Mold Remediation Standard. And the S520 is the only consensus accepted standard that exists. It is extremely clear.”
“It is a rather dense document, so it’s not for the fan, it’s not for the, you know, for every man. However, very few contractors follow it. And so they want to use, you know, but fogs and paints and zappers and, you know, ozone and all this stuff.
Mold remediation does not involve chemicals. So you also want to ask, do you use chemicals during remediation? If they say yes, next.
Because you can’t negotiate with these guys. They will even say yes. They’ll even say no sometimes and then use them anyway.
So you want to make sure that they’re not financially tied to your inspector. So the same kind of wisdom goes with, you know, I generally don’t like it when an inspector says, I only use one contractor. It’s only one I can trust.”
“And it may be true, but it’s also suspicious. And you want to really, you know, look at things like, you know, Department of Consumer Affairs and Better Business Bureau and, you know, get referrals, get references from people and follow up on them. Because people will tell you if they’ve got screwed.
And people know if something went south because they will have paid a lot of money and they will still be sick.
Yeah.
And so, you know, so you want to make sure that those, the contractor that you decide to go with actually shows up when they fail. They all fail. And on the clearance testing at the end.
They all fail at some point. And so you’ll also want to ask that with all the references. So did you, did they, did you do third party testing?”
“They have to agree to third party testing, by the way. And then they, then you’ll find out when you ask, did they show up? Did they pass or fail on the first time?
And if they failed, did they show up promptly to fix it? That’s a big deal. Because so many contractors just won’t show up.
They’ll take their 75 percent or whatever they already got paid and say, sayonara. So a lot of it has to do with just sort of like being an informed consumer, but also being, doing the things that nobody does, which is like follow up on references.
You might need to start some sort of association or something that the agent or inspectors and remediation companies can be a part of to show that they’re excellent.”
“We’re working on that actually. We’re working on a national referral network on gotmold.com. People will have to test in to knowledge verify.
They’ll have to agree to a code of ethics. Then there’ll be user feedback so that if customers are finding that they’re not doing what they’re supposed to do, they’re not showing up after they fail, for example. They get taken off the network.
So we’re working on that. That’s a big project.
Oh my gosh. I love our conversation. I feel like we could just keep talking and I’m realizing that we’ve done it so far.”
“We’ve talked for an hour already. But I do want to maybe have you back on because we didn’t even touch on sellers. I mean a little bit on sellers, but just how agents, if they want to grab listings, what they can do.
Then also, I want to talk about your GOT MOLD Summit. Maybe you could briefly talk about that.
Yeah. What I’ll do is I’ll shoot you over a link because the page is being built right now. So you can include that in your show notes.
So we’re putting together the GOT MOLD Virtual Summit, which is about 30 top experts on building science, indoor air quality, Lyme disease even, because it’s so closely related to mold-related illness, so common that they occur together. Our tagline is Clearing the Air on Mold and Microtoxins, because there’s so much misunderstanding, so much confusion in the subject. Even amongst, quote unquote, experts.”
“And so we got together the best experts in the world that actually don’t have any products to sell. Many of them are university researchers, and they truly don’t have anything to sell, so it’s amazing. I learned so much.
And so that’s really exciting. That’s gonna be launching between September 5th to the 8th. And so we’re really excited about that.
Is it online?
Is it virtual? It’s all virtual, yeah. And it will be at gotmoldsummit.com.
So you can just put that in the show notes. The other thing that I think is really important for anyone who’s made it this far is we put a welcome page together for your listeners at gotmold.com/wellnessrealestate. And if you go there, you’ll see that there is a link to this show, which is kind of fun.”
“So of course, if you listen to it already, you already know how to find it. But we also have our e-book, which I mentioned at the beginning of the recording, which is there for a free download. And there’s also a coupon code, which is WRE10 for anyone who wants to go straight to gotmold.com and buy a test kit.
WRE10 will give you 10% off, but it’s also there and you can click right through and that link is already embedded there.
Yeah, that might be a good gift for an agent who knows someone who has a client with allergies or sensitivities or something. Or maybe they should have one on their own so that they can use it to test homes that they’re touring or that their clients are seriously interested in. Or what do you think about that?”
“Yeah, it’s one of the best use cases for the test kit is, believe it or not, we have people giving them to expectant moms, get a little peace of mind. So, it’s kind of like useful for any mom who’s expecting or soon-to-be-mom, because they’re all worried about this, whether there’s an issue or not. And so, whether you have a mold problem or not, you want to know.
And so, sometimes the best value of our test kit is peace of mind. Most people don’t really want to know. So, there’s a little bit of avoidance with this stuff.
But moms expect them to want to know.
That’s wonderful. Okay, I know what I’m going to have you on the show next time. We’re going to talk about your working with wellness communities now and building mold like free homes or-”
“Yes. Yeah, that’s fine.
That’s exciting. And that is a really encouraging trend. You know, the fact that we’ve got these communities popping up.
I mean, I’m getting like an onslaught of interest. Just from having conversations like this, where people are coming to me, organizations and wellness communities coming. And it’s fun to see that so many people are waking up to this and they’re saying, there’s got to be a better way.
And they’re starting to put these things in place. And it’s not just aspirational. It’s not just for the jet set.
This is actually starting to become something that will mainstream, I think, in the next five years or so. So I’d love to have that conversation. Yeah.”
“Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you so much. This is such a great conversation.
Likewise. Thank you so much for having me.
You’re welcome. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. I hope you learned something that will inspire you to think about your branding and how you can market yourself a little differently.
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